Discussion:
how many helium atoms could you put inside a Bucky- ball before you get lift of the carbon molecule
(too old to reply)
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-14 17:48:10 UTC
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could this be a viable way to seed clouds for rain making due to the 60 carbon atoms needed to make a Bucky-ball that is the shape of a soccer ball. the helium would give it lift. In the upper atmosphere as water condensed around the Bucky- ball It would loose the ability to stay airborne and participation would occur
when the the ice crystals or water adheres to the sphere and hits the ground or thaws the whole process could start over again
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-14 21:08:36 UTC
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Post by e***@yahoo.com
could this be a viable way to seed clouds for rain making due to the 60 carbon atoms needed to make a Bucky-ball that is the shape of a soccer ball. the helium would give it lift.
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.

Magic google words if you want to learn: Archimedes' Principle, buoyancy

PS1: Did you post this in the wrong group?

PS2: Archimedes' Principle still comes as a surprise to lots of students when they hit it, despite being over 2000 years old.
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-15 01:08:29 UTC
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Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
could this be a viable way to seed clouds for rain making due to the 60 carbon atoms needed to make a Bucky-ball that is the shape of a soccer ball. the helium would give it lift.
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.
Magic google words if you want to learn: Archimedes' Principle, buoyancy
PS1: Did you post this in the wrong group?
PS2: Archimedes' Principle still comes as a surprise to lots of students when they hit it, despite being over 2000 years old.
Hydrogen and helium are the most commonly used lift gases. Although helium is twice as heavy it is inert and less likely to form some hydrocarbon chain in the upper atmosphere.Helium has but two electrons, and has a filled s-orbital,
no one said anything about some magic anti-gravity atom. an empty buckyball will not suspend in the jet stream.
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-15 01:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.
no one said anything about some magic anti-gravity atom. an empty buckyball will not suspend in the jet stream.
Why not? An empty buckyball is the same size and lighter. All putting helium inside will do is make it heavier, and less able to stay aloft.
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-15 16:47:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.
no one said anything about some magic anti-gravity atom. an empty buckyball will not suspend in the jet stream.
Why not? An empty buckyball is the same size and lighter. All putting helium inside will do is make it heavier, and less able to stay aloft.
.
.
..
.
a 60 atom molecule structure of carbon may not hold enough helium atoms to overcome the new added weight.or upward buoyant force exerted on a the buckyball to lift it up or
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-15 21:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.
no one said anything about some magic anti-gravity atom. an empty buckyball will not suspend in the jet stream.
Why not? An empty buckyball is the same size and lighter. All putting helium inside will do is make it heavier, and less able to stay aloft.
a 60 atom molecule structure of carbon may not hold enough helium atoms to overcome the new added weight.or upward buoyant force exerted on a the buckyball to lift it up or
Helium atoms won't do anything to overcome added weight. They'll only provide more added weight. Helium atoms are not magic anti-gravity atoms.
benj
2013-08-15 22:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
On Thursday, August 15, 2013 11:08:29 AM UTC+10,
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic
anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with
nothing inside.
no one said anything about some magic anti-gravity atom. an empty
buckyball will not suspend in the jet stream.
Why not? An empty buckyball is the same size and lighter. All putting
helium inside will do is make it heavier, and less able to stay
aloft.
a 60 atom molecule structure of carbon may not hold enough helium
atoms to overcome the new added weight.or upward buoyant force exerted
on a the buckyball to lift it up or
Helium atoms won't do anything to overcome added weight. They'll only
provide more added weight. Helium atoms are not magic anti-gravity
atoms.
Sure they are Timo. I've heard that science says that bumble bees
actually have pockets of helium inside their bodies which is how they fly
when science says they are too heavy to fly!
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-17 20:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Endohedral fullerenes (co-called endofullerenes) are fullerenes that have additional atoms, ions, or clusters enclosed within their inner spheres,they don't leek out.if the c=c bond length is small enough.
Buckminsterfullerene is a spherical fullerene molecule with a hollow sphere ,the formula C60. It has a cage-like fused-ring structure (Truncated icosahedron). The lattice constant, or lattice parameter, refers to the constant distance between th atoms bonds, Fullerenes are a cage like structure having formula C 60 ,C 70 ,C 78 . .... C=C bond length 1.38 Ǻ,

lighter-than-air craft the rigid frame Thunderbird : The astonishing airship set to revolutionise haulage, tourism... and warfare
The Aeroscraft can carry three times more than the biggest military cargo planes over thousands of miles and its not a balloon that expands the frame is fixed.Lighter than air refers to materials (usually gases) that are buoyant in air because they have densities lower than that of air. so yes you can get enoufgh helium into Bucky Balls to make them lighter than air with the wheight of the original carbon cage.so lets go back to the original question how many helium atoms will fit inside a 60 atom fullerene. also the lattice outer paremeter can be coated with a number of sealants that prevent the gas from leaking.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.
no one said anything about some magic anti-gravity atom. an empty buckyball will not suspend in the jet stream.
Why not? An empty buckyball is the same size and lighter. All putting helium inside will do is make it heavier, and less able to stay aloft.
.
.
..
.
a 60 atom molecule structure of carbon may not hold enough helium atoms to overcome the new added weight.or upward buoyant force exerted on a the buckyball to lift it up or
benj
2013-08-17 23:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
lighter-than-air craft the rigid frame Thunderbird : The astonishing
airship set to revolutionise haulage, tourism... and warfare The
Aeroscraft can carry three times more than the biggest military cargo
planes over thousands of miles and its not a balloon that expands the
frame is fixed.Lighter than air refers to materials (usually gases) that
are buoyant in air because they have densities lower than that of air.
so yes you can get enoufgh helium into Bucky Balls to make them lighter
than air with the wheight of the original carbon cage.so lets go back to
the original question how many helium atoms will fit inside a 60 atom
fullerene. also the lattice outer paremeter can be coated with a number
of sealants that prevent the gas from leaking.
I know what you mean. I've seen this stuff advertised on TV. Comes in a
spray can and it stops all manner of plumbing leaks. I'll bet it works
for Bucky balls too!

Anyway, just how to yu cram helium into Bucky Balls? If the holes are
small enough it cant escape then how do you get them in there? You must
leave a few carbon atoms out somewhere for a door! I bet you didn't think
of that. You and Timo are a hoot.
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-18 00:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by benj
Anyway, just how to yu cram helium into Bucky Balls?
Are you whining that something that's been done is impossible? Lots of different kinds of atoms have been put inside fullerenes. Including helium. (It can also happen naturally.)
benj
2013-08-18 02:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by benj
Anyway, just how to yu cram helium into Bucky Balls?
Are you whining that something that's been done is impossible? Lots of
different kinds of atoms have been put inside fullerenes. Including
helium. (It can also happen naturally.)
Since when is asking a question saying it's "impossible"? Kind of over-
reaching, aren't we?

So Mr. know it all, tell us just how big are the holes in Fullerenes? How
DO they get the atoms in there? Assemble the balls in a gas? Shoot them
in with an accelerator? Squeeze them in with a shoehorn? Open a little
"Maxwell" trapdor on the side? Can Helium leak out once it's in there to
give the balls lift? Inquiring minds want to know!
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-18 02:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by benj
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by benj
Anyway, just how to yu cram helium into Bucky Balls?
Are you whining that something that's been done is impossible? Lots of
different kinds of atoms have been put inside fullerenes. Including
helium. (It can also happen naturally.)
Since when is asking a question saying it's "impossible"? Kind of over-
reaching, aren't we?
If you don't think it impossible, why were you whining about it?
Post by benj
So Mr. know it all, tell us just how big are the holes in Fullerenes? How
DO they get the atoms in there? Assemble the balls in a gas?
That's the usual method. It's been done for decades. It isn't hard to find stuff about it if you bother searching www. E.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endohedral_fullerene
Post by benj
Can Helium leak out once it's in there
No. In theory, no, since helium won't fit through the holes. In practice, it seems no, since old helium (possibly interstellar) has been found in fullerenes. Also not new - well over a decade old.

[...]
Post by benj
to
give the balls lift?
So you think that helium atoms are magic anti-gravity atoms?
benj
2013-08-18 04:00:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
That's the usual method. It's been done for decades. It isn't hard to
find stuff about it if you bother searching www. E.g.,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endohedral_fullerene
Hmm. Interesting article. I recall chemists where I worked all trying to
make buckyballs and all excited over it. (Long before 1993) I just
searched around for any references but found none. I guess they got
nowhere although at the time they thought they had something. I recall
the NMR dude anxious to get that sample that would have the single C60
line in it. Personally I try to ignore chemistry (and chemists) as much
as I can.
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by benj
Can Helium leak out once it's in there
No. In theory, no, since helium won't fit through the holes. In
practice, it seems no, since old helium (possibly interstellar) has been
found in fullerenes. Also not new - well over a decade old.
I take it just one molecule fits inside. I'd have thought maybe more
would. One won't give the balls much of a lift!
Post by Timo Nieminen
[...]
Post by benj
to give the balls lift?
So you think that helium atoms are magic anti-gravity atoms?
Hey, it's a new theory to me and I sort of like it! Physics these days
seems to be going more and more toward magic as explanations so why not?

It probably only works if the helium and earth are "entangled".
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-19 01:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by benj
I take it just one molecule fits inside. I'd have thought maybe more
would. One won't give the balls much of a lift!
Apparently, 40 helium atoms will fit: http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/cphc.201100360

But putting single helium atoms (or other noble gasses) into fullerenes is very low yield, and the yield for multiple atoms will be very, very low. ***@C60 has been done, but I don't know if more than 3 has been achieved (and observed).
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-19 19:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by benj
I take it just one molecule fits inside. I'd have thought maybe more
would. One won't give the balls much of a lift!
Apparently, 40 helium atoms will fit: http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/cphc.201100360
thanks Timo for answering the question 40 helium atoms someone here said that helium is smaller than hydrogen then Is that true I don't think so.
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-19 19:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by benj
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by benj
Anyway, just how to yu cram helium into Bucky Balls?
Are you whining that something that's been done is impossible? Lots of
different kinds of atoms have been put inside fullerenes. Including
helium. (It can also happen naturally.)
Since when is asking a question saying it's "impossible"? Kind of over-
reaching, aren't we?
So Mr. know it all, tell us just how big are the holes in Fullerenes? How
DO they get the atoms in there? Assemble the balls in a gas? Shoot them
in with an accelerator? Squeeze them in with a shoehorn? Open a little
"Maxwell" trapdor on the side? Can Helium leak out once it's in there to
give the balls lift? Inquiring minds want to know!
I think the icosahedral .... The C60 molecule has two bond lengths (a0), 1.53635, 1.54428 [1]
Jos Bergervoet
2013-08-18 08:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by benj
... so lets go back to
the original question how many helium atoms will fit inside a 60 atom
fullerene. also the lattice outer paremeter can be coated with a number
of sealants that prevent the gas from leaking.
I know what you mean. I've seen this stuff advertised on TV. Comes in a
spray can and it stops all manner of plumbing leaks. I'll bet it works
for Bucky balls too!
Yes it does! I saw this guy in one commercial who
actually used it for some very old bucky balls he
got from an auction! It was amazing..
Post by benj
Anyway, just how to yu cram helium into Bucky Balls? If the holes are
small enough it cant escape then how do you get them in there? You must
leave a few carbon atoms out somewhere for a door!
Superfluid He! It will enter Bucky Balls without any
resistance, so Doors are not needed any more. (And
Nirvana was better anyway.)
--
Jos
Poutnik
2013-08-18 08:17:54 UTC
Permalink
Jos Bergervoet posted Sun, 18 Aug 2013 10:10:19 +0200
Post by Jos Bergervoet
Post by benj
Anyway, just how to yu cram helium into Bucky Balls? If the holes are
small enough it cant escape then how do you get them in there? You must
leave a few carbon atoms out somewhere for a door!
Superfluid He! It will enter Bucky Balls without any
resistance, so Doors are not needed any more. (And
Nirvana was better anyway.)
I very doubt the superfluidity exists
at level of single helium atoms.
--
Poutnik
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-19 19:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Poutnik
Jos Bergervoet posted Sun, 18 Aug 2013 10:10:19 +0200
Post by Jos Bergervoet
Post by benj
Anyway, just how to yu cram helium into Bucky Balls? If the holes are
small enough it cant escape then how do you get them in there? You must
leave a few carbon atoms out somewhere for a door!
Superfluid He! It will enter Bucky Balls without any
resistance, so Doors are not needed any more. (And
Nirvana was better anyway.)
I very doubt the superfluidity exists
at level of single helium atoms.
--
Poutnik
Heating fullerenes at 650°C under 3000 atmospheres of the noble gases helium, neon, argon, krypton, and xenon
Poutnik
2013-08-20 04:54:59 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com posted Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:12:25 -0700
(PDT)
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Superfluid He! It will enter Bucky Balls without any resistance, so
Doors are not needed any more. (And Nirvana was better anyway.)
I very doubt the superfluidity exists at level of single helium
atoms.
Heating fullerenes at 650°C under 3000 atmospheres of the noble gases
helium, neon, argon, krypton, and xenon
Tha is not superfluidity.
--
Poutnik
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-20 17:33:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Poutnik
(PDT)
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Superfluid He! It will enter Bucky Balls without any resistance, so
Doors are not needed any more. (And Nirvana was better anyway.)
I very doubt the superfluidity exists at level of single helium
atoms.
Heating fullerenes at 650°C under 3000 atmospheres of the noble gases
helium, neon, argon, krypton, and xenon
Tha is not superfluidity.
--
Poutnik
you construct the carbon around the helium,no doors or hole needed.
Don Kelly
2013-08-16 02:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
could this be a viable way to seed clouds for rain making due to the 60 carbon atoms needed to make a Bucky-ball that is the shape of a soccer ball. the helium would give it lift.
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.
Magic google words if you want to learn: Archimedes' Principle, buoyancy
PS1: Did you post this in the wrong group?
PS2: Archimedes' Principle still comes as a surprise to lots of students when they hit it, despite being over 2000 years old.
Hydrogen and helium are the most commonly used lift gases. Although helium is twice as heavy it is inert and less likely to form some hydrocarbon chain in the upper atmosphere.Helium has but two electrons, and has a filled s-orbital,
no one said anything about some magic anti-gravity atom. an empty buckyball will not suspend in the jet stream.
Your buckyball is a rigid structure and it will displace a fixed volume
of air-Putting hydrogen, helium or wishful thinking into it will not
change this and, as Timo correctly says, will increase its weight.
Use of helium, under pressure, depends on a container that expands and
allows displacement of more than its weight of air.

So, if your buckyball is to rise, it must be able to expand under
pressure as a balloon does.
Another problem is that helium (and hydrogen) molecules are small- the
buckyball has interatomic spaces that may well be larger than these
molecules- i.e. it will leak, and if it is expandible, it will leak faster.

P.S. in relation to another matter, congratulations on finding that a
salt fog is more conductive than a pure water fog. It's too bad that
power companies in coastal areas have known this for many decades.
--
Don Kelly
remove the cross to reply
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-17 20:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kelly
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
could this be a viable way to seed clouds for rain making due to the 60 carbon atoms needed to make a Bucky-ball that is the shape of a soccer ball. the helium would give it lift.
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.
Magic google words if you want to learn: Archimedes' Principle, buoyancy
PS1: Did you post this in the wrong group?
PS2: Archimedes' Principle still comes as a surprise to lots of students when they hit it, despite being over 2000 years old.
Hydrogen and helium are the most commonly used lift gases. Although helium is twice as heavy it is inert and less likely to form some hydrocarbon chain in the upper atmosphere.Helium has but two electrons, and has a filled s-orbital,
no one said anything about some magic anti-gravity atom. an empty buckyball will not suspend in the jet stream.
Your buckyball is a rigid structure and it will displace a fixed volume
of air-Putting hydrogen, helium or wishful thinking into it will not
change this and, as Timo correctly says, will increase its weight.
Use of helium, under pressure, depends on a container that expands and
allows displacement of more than its weight of air.
So, if your buckyball is to rise, it must be able to expand under
pressure as a balloon does.
Another problem is that helium (and hydrogen) molecules are small- the
buckyball has interatomic spaces that may well be larger than these
molecules- i.e. it will leak, and if it is expandible, it will leak faster.
P.S. in relation to another matter, congratulations on finding that a
salt fog is more conductive than a pure water fog. It's too bad that
power companies in coastal areas have known this for many decades.
--
Don Kelly
remove the cross to reply
Endohedral fullerenes (co-called endofullerenes) are fullerenes that have additional atoms, ions, or clusters enclosed within their inner spheres,they don't leek out.if the c=c bond length is small enough.
Buckminsterfullerene is a spherical fullerene molecule with a hollow sphere ,the formula C60. It has a cage-like fused-ring structure (Truncated icosahedron). The lattice constant, or lattice parameter, refers to the constant distance between th atoms bonds, Fullerenes are a cage like structure having formula C 60 ,C 70 ,C 78 . .... C=C bond length 1.38 Ǻ,

lighter-than-air craft the rigid frame Thunderbird : The astonishing airship set to revolutionise haulage, tourism... and warfare
The Aeroscraft can carry three times more than the biggest military cargo planes over thousands of miles and its not a balloon that expands the frame is fixed.Lighter than air refers to materials (usually gases) that are buoyant in air because they have densities lower than that of air. so yes you can get enoufgh helium into Bucky Balls to make them lighter than air with the wheight of the original carbon cage.so lets go back to the original question how many helium atoms will fit inside a 60 atom fullerene. also the lattice outer paremeter can be coated with a number of sealants that prevent the gas from leaking.
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-17 20:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
could this be a viable way to seed clouds for rain making due to the 60 carbon atoms needed to make a Bucky-ball that is the shape of a soccer ball. the helium would give it lift.
Why would helium give it lift? Helium isn't some magic anti-gravity atom. The buckyball will be more buoyant with nothing inside.
Magic google words if you want to learn: Archimedes' Principle, buoyancy
PS1: Did you post this in the wrong group?
PS2: Archimedes' Principle still comes as a surprise to lots of students when they hit it, despite being over 2000 years old.
so that's not correct a rigid frame air ship is enormously heavy but adding helium within it increases it's weight as well but it still has enough buoyancy to overcome the weight of the surrounding air.
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-17 21:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
so that's not correct a rigid frame air ship is enormously heavy but adding helium within it increases it's weight as well but it still has enough buoyancy to overcome the weight of the surrounding air.
Without the helium, it has air inside it. Density of air is about 1.3kg per cubic metre (at STP). Density of helium is about 0.18kg/m3. When you put helium inside it, it replaces air, so for every m3 of helium, you reduce the weight by 1.1kg. When you put put helium into a (rigid) airship, you are removing air. It isn't adding the helium that's the important thing, it's removing the air. (Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any other gas.) Adding helium _reduces_ the weight of a (rigid) airship.

The buoyancy force acting on an object of volume V immersed in a fluid of density d_fluid only depends on V and d_fluid. It's equal to V*d_fluid*g, upward, where g is the local acceleration due to gravity. Note well that, keeping V constant, adding helium does nothing to this force. Removing air from inside does nothing to this force. Only the volume and the density of the external fluid (air, in the case you are considering) matter.

The other force that you must consider is the weight of the object. That's mg, or V*d_object*g, acting downwards. So the total force is F = mg-V*d_fluid*g = V*(d_object-d_fluid)*g.

If you take a buckball, the volume V is constant. Normally, it contains vacuum. If you put helium in, it becomes heavier. This doesn't change the buoyancy (since it doesn't change volume or the density of the air outside). It increase the mass, so it increases the weight.

The more helium you cram inside, the heavier it becomes, and the net downward force increases.

Helium is not a magic anti-gravity atom.

Aristotle knew how this stuff worked, and Archimedes did the math. It isn't new. You should learn about this stuff - if not because you want to know how the world works, at least so that your schemes don't look as foolish due to being founded on elementary errors.
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-17 21:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
so that's not correct a rigid frame air ship is enormously heavy but adding helium within it increases it's weight as well but it still has enough buoyancy to overcome the weight of the surrounding air.
Without the helium, it has air inside it. Density of air is about 1.3kg per cubic metre (at STP). Density of helium is about 0.18kg/m3. When you put helium inside it, it replaces air, so for every m3 of helium, you reduce the weight by 1.1kg. When you put put helium into a (rigid) airship, you are removing air. It isn't adding the helium that's the important thing, it's removing the air. (Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any other gas.) Adding helium _reduces_ the weight of a (rigid) airship.
The buoyancy force acting on an object of volume V immersed in a fluid of density d_fluid only depends on V and d_fluid. It's equal to V*d_fluid*g, upward, where g is the local acceleration due to gravity. Note well that, keeping V constant, adding helium does nothing to this force. Removing air from inside does nothing to this force. Only the volume and the density of the external fluid (air, in the case you are considering) matter.
The other force that you must consider is the weight of the object. That's mg, or V*d_object*g, acting downwards. So the total force is F = mg-V*d_fluid*g = V*(d_object-d_fluid)*g.
If you take a buckball, the volume V is constant. Normally, it contains vacuum. If you put helium in, it becomes heavier. This doesn't change the buoyancy (since it doesn't change volume or the density of the air outside). It increase the mass, so it increases the weight.
The more helium you cram inside, the heavier it becomes, and the net downward force increases.
Helium is not a magic anti-gravity atom.
Aristotle knew how this stuff worked, and Archimedes did the math. It isn't new. You should learn about this stuff - if not because you want to know how the world works, at least so that your schemes don't look as foolish due to being founded on elementary errors.
Timo Nieminen Wrote
(Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any other gas. the hot air balloon works by the temperature difference of cold air on the out side and the hot air on the inside to accomplish lift. cold air is more dense.
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-17 22:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Timo Nieminen Wrote
Post by Timo Nieminen
(Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any other gas.
the hot air balloon works by the temperature difference of cold air on the out side and the hot air on the inside to accomplish lift. cold air is more dense.
... and hot air is less dense. The volume of the balloon stays the same as the air inside is heated. The density decreases. So the mass becomes smaller (which means some air has left the balloon). As the air is heated, it expands. Since the volume of the balloon stays the same, some of the hot air escapes. So there is less mass inside the balloon.

Note well: the key point is that you _reduce_ the mass while keeping the volume the same. Your suggestion to _add_ mass to buckyballs while keeping the volume the same won't work. Helium atoms are not magic anti-gravity atoms.
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-17 22:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Timo Nieminen Wrote
Post by Timo Nieminen
(Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any other gas.
the key is density and mass thats why jupiter would float if you but in a vary large ocean. reducing the density within the buckyball is the key the buckyball having enough lift the more I think about it I see your point. the original vacuum inside would be lighter.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
the hot air balloon works by the temperature difference of cold air on the out side and the hot air on the inside to accomplish lift. cold air is more dense.
... and hot air is less dense. The volume of the balloon stays the same as the air inside is heated. The density decreases. So the mass becomes smaller (which means some air has left the balloon). As the air is heated, it expands. Since the volume of the balloon stays the same, some of the hot air escapes. So there is less mass inside the balloon.
Note well: the key point is that you _reduce_ the mass while keeping the volume the same. Your suggestion to _add_ mass to buckyballs while keeping the volume the same won't work. Helium atoms are not magic anti-gravity atoms.
e***@yahoo.com
2013-08-17 22:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Post by e***@yahoo.com
so that's not correct a rigid frame air ship is enormously heavy but
adding helium within it increases it's weight as well but it still has enough buoyancy to overcome the weight of the surrounding air.
Post by e***@yahoo.com
If you look inside the fullerene, we find only an emptiness pierced by electromagnetic fields, containing "nothing" - a vacuum enclosed in a carbon shell so replacing the vacuum with a much lighter gas like helium atoms still displaces enough volume with in the sphere to be lighter than the normal mixture of air
Substance % by volume
Nitrogen, N2
78.08
Oxygen, O2
20.95
Argon, Ar 0.93
Carbon dioxide, CO2
0.033
Neon, Ne 0.0018
Helium, He 0.00052
Methane, CH4
0.0002
Krypton, Kr 0.00011
Nitrogen(I) oxide, N2
O 0.00005
Hydrogen, H2
0.00005
Xenon, Xe 0.0000087
Ozone, O3
0.000001
Post by e***@yahoo.com
Without the helium, it has air inside it. Density of air is about 1.3kg per cubic metre (at STP). Density of helium is about 0.18kg/m3. When you put helium inside it, it replaces air, so for every m3 of helium, you reduce the weight by 1.1kg. When you put put helium into a (rigid) airship, you are removing air. It isn't adding the helium that's the important thing, it's removing the air. (Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any other gas.) Adding helium _reduces_ the weight of a (rigid) airship.
The buoyancy force acting on an object of volume V immersed in a fluid of density d_fluid only depends on V and d_fluid. It's equal to V*d_fluid*g, upward, where g is the local acceleration due to gravity. Note well that, keeping V constant, adding helium does nothing to this force. Removing air from inside does nothing to this force. Only the volume and the density of the external fluid (air, in the case you are considering) matter.
The other force that you must consider is the weight of the object. That's mg, or V*d_object*g, acting downwards. So the total force is F = mg-V*d_fluid*g = V*(d_object-d_fluid)*g.
If you take a buckball, the volume V is constant. Normally, it contains vacuum. If you put helium in, it becomes heavier. This doesn't change the buoyancy (since it doesn't change volume or the density of the air outside). It increase the mass, so it increases the weight.
The more helium you cram inside, the heavier it becomes, and the net downward force increases.
Helium is not a magic anti-gravity atom.
Aristotle knew how this stuff worked, and Archimedes did the math. It isn't new. You should learn about this stuff - if not because you want to know how the world works, at least so that your schemes don't look as foolish due to being founded on elementary errors.
Timo Nieminen Wrote
(Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any other gas. the hot air balloon works by the temperature difference of cold air on the out side and the hot air on the inside to accomplish lift. cold air is more dense.
Timo Nieminen
2013-08-17 22:13:11 UTC
Permalink
If you look inside the fullerene, we find only an emptiness pierced by electromagnetic fields, containing "nothing" - a vacuum enclosed in a carbon shell so replacing the vacuum with a much lighter gas like helium atoms
Helium is _not_ lighter than vacuum, let alone "much lighter" than vacuum. Helium atoms are not magic anti-gravity atoms.
Don Kelly
2013-08-18 04:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
If you look inside the fullerene, we find only an emptiness pierced by electromagnetic fields, containing "nothing" - a vacuum enclosed in a carbon shell so replacing the vacuum with a much lighter gas like helium atoms
Helium is _not_ lighter than vacuum, let alone "much lighter" than vacuum. Helium atoms are not magic anti-gravity atoms.
Timo - you are trying to deal with something science and facts can't
handle- that something is a gloss of terms wrapped in invincible
ignorance.
--
Don Kelly
remove the cross to reply
Salmon Egg
2013-08-19 19:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kelly
Post by Timo Nieminen
If you look inside the fullerene, we find only an emptiness pierced by
electromagnetic fields, containing "nothing" - a vacuum enclosed in a
carbon shell so replacing the vacuum with a much lighter gas like helium
atoms
Helium is _not_ lighter than vacuum, let alone "much lighter" than vacuum.
Helium atoms are not magic anti-gravity atoms.
Timo - you are trying to deal with something science and facts can't
handle- that something is a gloss of terms wrapped in invincible
ignorance.
I have noted this thread but have not spent much time following it. My
guess is that a sheet of carbon atoms CANNOT retain helium for very
long. Silica (fused quartz) is quite porous to helium. It is bad enough
that you cannot use helium to cool laser flash-tubes with helium. enough
leeks through to contaminate the xenon in a short period. Silica or
borosilicate glasses are also too porous for many physical experiments
because of ATMOSPHERIC helium getting through the glass. Other glasses
must be used.

To make more signal and less noise on this topic, at minimum, compare
the bond lengths of the carbon-carbon bonds in fullerene to the diameter
of helium atoms. The length for hexagons is 135pm. The radius for helium
(both given in Wikipedia) is 140pm. That does not appear to be a
difficult squeeze out. A helium atom is smaller than a hydrogen atom.
--
Sam

Conservatives are against Darwinism but for natural selection.
Liberals are for Darwinism but totally against any selection.
Jos Bergervoet
2013-08-18 07:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
so that's not correct a rigid frame air ship is enormously heavy but adding helium within it increases it's weight as well but it still has enough buoyancy to overcome the weight of the surrounding air.
Without the helium, it has air inside it. Density of air is about 1.3kg per cubic metre (at STP). Density of helium is about 0.18kg/m3. When you put helium inside it, it replaces air, so for every m3 of helium, you reduce the weight by 1.1kg. When you put put helium into a (rigid) airship, you are removing air. It isn't adding the helium that's the important thing, it's removing the air. (Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any other gas.)
...
Adding helium _reduces_ the weight of a (rigid) airship.
No Timo, removing air reduces the weight! Adding helium only
increases it again..

(Lest your opponent might say: "yes, that's what I said!")
--
Jos
Poutnik
2013-08-18 08:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Jos Bergervoet posted Sun, 18 Aug 2013 09:56:13 +0200
Post by Jos Bergervoet
Post by Timo Nieminen
Post by e***@yahoo.com
so that's not correct a rigid frame air ship is enormously heavy but adding helium within it increases it's weight as well but it still has enough buoyancy to overcome the weight of the surrounding air.
Without the helium, it has air inside it. Density of air is about 1.3kg per cubic metre (at STP). Density of helium is about 0.18kg/m3. When you put helium inside it, it replaces air, so for every m3 of helium, you reduce the weight by 1.1kg. When you put put helium into a (rigid) airship, you are removing air. It isn't adding the helium that's the important thing, it's removing the air. (Consider a hot air balloon, which works by removing air, without adding any
other gas.)
Post by Jos Bergervoet
Post by Timo Nieminen
...
Adding helium _reduces_ the weight of a (rigid) airship.
No Timo, removing air reduces the weight! Adding helium only
increases it again..
Reducing weight by replaicing air by helium.
Just adding helium increases it, of course.

For OP:
Let suppose we have a rigid sphere with vacuumed cavity,
with just neutral buoyancy.

If we pump helium inside,
it will not climb up, but sink down.
--
Poutnik
Jos Bergervoet
2013-08-18 16:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Poutnik
Jos Bergervoet posted Sun, 18 Aug 2013 09:56:13 +0200
Post by Jos Bergervoet
Post by Timo Nieminen
...
Adding helium _reduces_ the weight of a (rigid) airship.
No Timo, removing air reduces the weight! Adding helium only
increases it again..
Reducing weight by replaicing air by helium.
No, Timo wrote "adding helium". :-) That clearly means
leaving the air in it. The word "adding" has a meaning
you cannot just deny! Or do you think 2+2=2?
--
Jos
Poutnik
2013-08-18 17:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Jos Bergervoet posted Sun, 18 Aug 2013 18:54:06 +0200
Post by Jos Bergervoet
Post by Poutnik
Jos Bergervoet posted Sun, 18 Aug 2013 09:56:13 +0200
Post by Jos Bergervoet
Post by Timo Nieminen
...
Adding helium _reduces_ the weight of a (rigid) airship.
No Timo, removing air reduces the weight! Adding helium only
increases it again..
Reducing weight by replaicing air by helium.
No, Timo wrote "adding helium". :-) That clearly means
leaving the air in it. The word "adding" has a meaning
you cannot just deny! Or do you think 2+2=2?
You should than read more than just the last line... :-)
--
Poutnik
Saint Isidore Patron Saint of the Internet
2013-09-05 02:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
could this be a viable way to seed clouds for rain making due to the 60 carbon atoms needed to make a Bucky-ball that is the shape of a soccer ball. the helium would give it lift. In the upper atmosphere as water condensed around the Bucky- ball It would loose the ability to stay airborne and participation would occur
when the the ice crystals or water adheres to the sphere and hits the ground or thaws the whole process could start over again
42 million +- 635
My dogs name is Bucky and he has a favorite ball and I counted them and that amount lifted the ball (although I think I lost my count just at the point
of my count tally of +- 635 So, now you know!

I AM therefore I was.
WOMP WOMP

Me
e***@yahoo.com
2013-09-06 13:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@yahoo.com
could this be a viable way to seed clouds for rain making due to the 60 carbon atoms needed to make a Bucky-ball that is the shape of a soccer ball. the helium would give it lift. In the upper atmosphere as water condensed around the Bucky- ball It would loose the ability to stay airborne and participation would occur
when the the ice crystals or water adheres to the sphere and hits the ground or thaws the whole process could start over again
actually nano-hoops or large chains of carbon hoops could hold much more helium if you heat the helium in the hoops they will be buoyant enough to stay aloft in the clouds till they cool down.
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